John Armstrong's "Last Word," and Mine

Since I have now apparently been banned from posting on John Armstrong's blog, I will post his "last word" and mine here. The remainder of our exchange is under his August 17, 2007 post titled, "'Propositional Truth,' 'Objective Truth' and the Debate Over What We Know and How We Know It."

Dr. Armstrong's "last word" appears first:


Jeff,

This will be my last response! You are determined to "pull me out of the thicket" as you put it. This assumes I am in danger of losing my soul and yet you do not even know me pesonally. The hubris of this theological conclusion is quite staggering really. Many readers will follow this and make up their own mind as they read. God will decide the truth of the matter and thus we will each stand or fall to our own Master. I am grateful for your obvious concern. I reject, however, your arguments and really have nothing much else to add. I am also profoundly grateful that God is my final judge and that his mercy is more gracious and reliable than your human judgments and logic. If a man who relies on Christ alone---his death, burial and resurrection---to save him from his own acknowledged and confessed sin is a Christian then I am one.

If I opposed Christ and his kingdom then your concluding comments might be appropriate. I suggest you rather spend your time trying to win people for our Lord who actually deny Christ and do not believe in saving faith which is granted by the Holy Spirit alone. That is my own calling as a minister of the gospel thus I have nothing else to add to this back and forth form of commenting on this blog spot.

Grace and peace to you my brother!

Here is my "last word:"

Dr. Armstrong:

Since you have given your "last word" on this subject, I will give mine.

First, you claim I am guilty of "hubris" because I do not know you. How do you know that we are not acquainted? Isn't it hubris to assume that we are not?

Second, the "human judgments and logic" you claim I rely upon are only human if you assume that Scripture is a merely human interpretation. That is why I asked (and you declined to answer) whether you affirm the doctrine of the verbal inspiration of Scripture. Scripture (i.e., the very words of God) is most emphatically not merely human and not mere logic -- it is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." (Romans 1:16) That is where your beliefs and orthodox Biblical Christianity diverge -- at least, you have given no reason for the reader to think otherwise in any of your responses to my questions.

Third, you appeal to God to "decide the matter" and to be your "final judge." How can you be so certain that He has not already decided? If God has spoken with truth and finality through His holy and inspired Word (and He has), then if your beliefs (or mine or anyone's) diverge from the truth set forth in His Word we are in error, and nothing remains to be determined.

Finally, every Christian should indeed try to win people for the Lord. Every Christian is also commanded: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

If the Christ you or I rely upon and proclaim is not the true Christ of Scripture, then we are in danger of losing our souls, and it does not matter whether you or I spend our time trying to win people to the Lord, what our calling is, what our epistemology is, or whatever else we may believe.

I will remain in prayer for your soul.

Willing to Believe Anything -- Except The Bible

The incomparable Charles Spurgeon (he of the dead white preachers) hits the nail squarely on the head in discussing the unbelief of our postmodern friends, as it was given expression in Spurgeon's day:

The [post]moderns are able to believe anything except their Bibles. They credulously receive any statement, so long as it is not in the Scriptures; but if it is founded on Scripture, they are, of course, prepared to doubt and quibble and cavil straight away.

Hmmm. Sounds familiar. Same old unbelief, just different words.

Where Are the Pastors With This Kind of Heart for God?

"I Am A Debtor"

When this passing world is done,
When has sunk yon glaring sun,
When we stand with Christ in glory,
Looking o’er life’s finished story,
Then, Lord, shall I fully know—
Not till then—how much I owe.

When I hear the wicked call,
On the rocks and hills to fall,
When I see them start and shrink
On the fiery deluge brink,
Then, Lord, shall I fully know—
Not till then—how much I owe.

When I stand before the throne,
Dressed in beauty not my own,
When I see Thee as Thou art,
Love Thee with unsinning heart,
Then Lord, shall I fully know—
Not till then—how much I owe.

When the praise of Heav’n I hear,
Loud as thunders to the ear,
Loud as many waters’ noise,
Sweet as harp’s melodious voice,
Then, Lord, shall I fully know—
Not till then—how much I owe.

Even on earth, as through a glass
Darkly, let Thy glory pass,
Make forgiveness feel so sweet,
Make Thy Spirit’s help so meet,
Even on earth, Lord, make me know
Something of how much I owe.

Chosen not for good in me,
Wakened up from wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Savior’s side,
By the Spirit sanctified,
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show,
By my love, how much I owe.

Oft I walk beneath the cloud,
Dark, as midnight’s gloomy shroud;
But, when fear is at the height,
Jesus comes, and all is light;
Blessed Jesus! bid me show
Doubting saints how much I owe.

When in flowery paths I tread,
Oft by sin I’m captive led;
Oft I fall—but still arise—
The Spirit comes—the tempter flies;
Blessed Spirit! bid me show
Weary sinners all I owe.

Oft the nights of sorrow reign—
Weeping, sickness, sighing, pain;
But a night Thine anger burns—
Morning comes and joy returns;
God of comforts! bid me show
To Thy poor, how much I owe

–Robert Murray M’Cheyne, 1837

O Lord, Look Down From Heaven, Behold

O Lord, Look Down from Heaven, Behold

O Lord, look down from heaven, behold
And let Thy pity waken:
How few are we within Thy Fold,
Thy saints by men forsaken!
True faith seems quenched on every hand,
Men suffer not Thy Word to stand;
Dark times have us o'ertaken.

With fraud which they themselves invent
Thy truth they have confounded;
Their hearts are not with one consent
On Thy pure doctrine grounded.
While they parade with outward show,
They lead the people to and fro,
In error's maze astounded.

May God root out all heresy
And of false teachers rid us
Who proudly say: Now, where is he
That shall our speech forbid us?
By right or might we shall prevail;
What we determine cannot fail;
We own no lord and master.

Therefore saith God, I must arise,
The poor My help are needing;
To Me ascend My people's cries,
And I have heard their pleading.
For them My saving Word shall fight
And fearlessly and sharply smite,
The poor with might defending.

As silver tried by fire is pure
From all adulteration,
So through God's Word shall men endure
Each trial and temptation.
Its light beams brighter through the cross,
And, purified from human dross,
It shines through every nation.

Thy truth defend, O God, and stay
This evil generation;
And from the error of their way
Keep Thine own congregation.
The wicked everywhere abound
And would Thy little flock confound;
But Thou art our Salvation.

-- Martin Luther (The Lutheran Hymnal, No. 262)

Amen, and amen!

Who is John Armstrong And What Does He Really Believe?

Hmmm. It appears my exchange with John Armstrong questioning his dislike for "propositional truth" hit a nerve.

See his post titled, "Propositional" Truth, "Objective Truth," and the Debate About What We Know and How We Know It" today (8/17/07) at

http://johnharmstrong.typepad.com/john_h_armstrong_/

Fighting At the Point of the Enemy's Attack

A welcome reminder from Martin Luther that, unless we are fighting for truth at the very point it is being attacked, we are not fighting at all:

"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, the loyalty of the soldier is proved, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point."

Who is John Armstrong Part II

John Armstrong's position on "propositional truth" is skewed to say the very least.

As a point of departure in examining this very important issue, here is my post in response to Dr. Armstrong's 8/4/07 posting under his entry, "How Important is Propositional Truth?"

I wrote:

"The first paragraph of the last post deserves some further scrutiny.

First: I defy you to identify any meaningful distinction between sentence no. 1 ("I am not denying propositional truth") and sentence no. 2 ("ultimate truth cannot be reduced to propositions").

Certainly, we are talking about "ultimate truth" when we discuss propositions such as, "Jesus is the truth." How could it possibly be otherwise? Are you saying there is some type of truth that can be propositional in nature but that is somehow non-ultimate? And what is your basis for condescendingly referring to "reducing" ultimate truth to propositions?

Second: Your third sentence ("If Christ is the Truth then we cannot reduce truth to statements of logic or propositions") is patently false and unsupportable.

When you say, "If Christ is the Truth," are you denying that He is the Truth as John 14:6 clearly states?

Where is there any Scriptural support for your statement? Certainly any attempt to support this statement would have to, at a minimum, reckon with John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Word"). This text gives no indication that the author is the least bit reluctant to "reduce" truth to propositional form, even matters of ultimate truth.

Further, any attempt to support your statement scripturally would also need to address passages such as Romans 8:32, Luke 11:13 and many, many others in which logic, propositions and arguments are made time and time again."

There is so very much more to be said in response to these statements and others by Dr. Armstrong . . .